Not Knotting

It's the last day of June -- the traditional month for getting married. 

So perhaps it's only appropriate that yesterday, the Sassistas! woke up to an email from singlemommasista with this subject line: "A brave article."  Her email included a link to this article by Sandra Tsing Loh in the July-August Atlantic Monthly entitled, "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off."  Singlemommasista -- recently divorced with two young children -- then wrote: "I'd love to hear what the Sassistas! nation thinks about this."

So sistas and mistas, here goes.  Because many of you don't even have time to read your grocery store list, let alone this blog or an article linked to one of its posts, following are the major points of Loh's article (which is actually a review of five books about marriage):

• After much therapy and tears, Loh is ending her marriage.  "In women's-magazine parlance, I did not have the strength to 'work on' falling in love again in my marriage."
• "Given my staggering working mother's-to-do list, I cannot take on yet another arduous home- and self-improvement project, that of rekindling our romance."
• "Why do we insist on marriage?  Sure, it made sense to agrarian families before 1900, when to farm the land, one needed two spouses, grandparents, and a raft of children.  But now that we have white-collar work washing machines, and our life expectancy has shot from 47 to 77, isn't the idea of lifelong marriage obsolete?"
• "Religious Americans are more likely to divorce than secular Swedes."
• "To work, to parent, to housekeep, to be the ones who schedule 'date night,' only to be reprimanded in the home by male kitchen bitches, and then, in the bedroom, to be ignored -- it's a bum deal.  And then our women's magazines exhort us to rekindle the romance.  You rarely see men's magazines exhorting men to rekindle the romance."
• Among Loh's recommendations for "high-revving women who are sexually frustrated," are "some sort of French arrangement where they have two men, the postfeminist model dad building shelves, cooking bouillabaise, and ignoring them in the home, and the occasional fun-loving boyfriend the kids never see."

These are, of course, the more stunning statements in the article, but you get the point.  Read that article along with this one entitled, "Why Your Marriage Sucks" by Amanda Fortini in yesterday's Slate, and you may want to, well . . . call the whole thing off.

I asked singlemommasista why she found the Loh article so compelling.  She responded:

I found the article compelling b/c:
 
A)    She said some things I think, but never say aloud, so “affirmed” is a good word.
B)     She was honest about a topic that is considered somewhat sacred and I admire that.
C)    It got me thinking about my future relationships and how it impacts my children.
D)    I sometimes feel like a “bad” person and this article alleviated that a bit.
 
Not sure on getting married.  I never say never, but I have to wonder why do it?  What, in all honesty, is the point?  It satisfies something for people and I get that, but it seems to have less relevance these days.
 
Again, I’m clearly cynical at the moment, but I’m happy, so please don’t mistake this as a bitter woman behind this email.

So Sassistas! nation -- what do we think?

Comments

[Flannista]

Over the life of Sassistas!, I've been schizophrenic about marriage. The romantic in me is all for it. My parents can remain faithful to each other for nearly 60 years . . . so there's got to me something "sacred" or at least, "magical" about marriage. But then I read about America's 50% divorce rate and that the "spark" in marriage lasts only four years (these stats are from a Rutgers study) and that the average wedding costs $28,000 -- I wonder, "and gays and lesbians WANT TO GET MARRIED?"

At the end of her article, "Why Your Marriage Sucks" (linked in this post), Amanda Fortini thinks that gays and lesbians wanting to get married may, in the end, SAVE the institution. Here's her reasoning:

"It's interesting that even as heterosexual women are sounding the death knell for their nuptials, homosexual men and women are fighting for the right to marry traditionally. It may be that you can't properly loathe an institution of which you are not yet a member. And gay marriage, for many in this country, remains intriguingly unfamiliar. Come to think of it, if the current venting among the unhappily married accomplishes anything, it may send the rebellious and romantic-minded to the altar with a defiant sneer. After all, the more marriage is maligned, the more dangerous and transgressive it will appear."

Is marriage becoming obsolete? And if it is, why do I still WISH I HAD GOTTEN MARRIED, though it's unlikely to happen now?

[Chrysosistah]

What a cute title for the post! Thanks for providing the Reader's Digest version, I figured I'd check in quickly this morning before another busy day - didn't think there'd be no commentary yet!

I've gotta think about this...separate my personal bias out, etc. Offhand, it strikes me as a bit of a dream, and exactly what we have been lambasting Sanford, etc., for. I'm sure there's many guys who'd buy into that concept. But let me step away and mull this over...

Singlemommasista - I think you have the hardest job in the world (single parenting). Bless your heart!

[Flannista]

Chryso -- must pause for a moment and thank you again for your loyalty to the 'sphere. It was so rare for me to be still up last night when half-a posted. But there you were. Made me feel less alone -- and I'm certain half-a feels the same way.

Here are some quotes I came across about today's topic:

"I never believed in divorce until I got married." -- Diane Ford

"My husband and I had a very messy divorce because there was a baby involved. Him. And I didn't want custody." -- Wendy Liebman

"I'm not upset about my divorce. I'm only upset I'm not a widow." -- Roseanne Barr

[dcsistah]

what a great topic. i skimmed both articles. its a topic that's right where i'm living now. i've even decided to skip exercise this morning to have more time to post this.

shoulda read sassistas before anything else this morning. my bad!

anyway, about marriage. after i realized that i'm gay, and had thoroughly broken my now ex husband's heart, committed to a beautiful butch lunatic and resigned myself to a tumultuous and poverty stricken existence, i decided marriage is for the birds. only certain birds. but not again never again for me. its such a delusion: i pledge to love you no matter what.

yeah right. on what planet?

and then i broke up with lunatic butch and found treesta. and suddenly, or rather slowly, it dawns on me that a second marriage makes sense. and maybe i can have it be legal, in dc anyway as our city council and populace and a few interfering homophobes struggle to decide about marriage equality.

as frank rich said in the nytimes this weekend:

"It's a press cliché that 'gay supporters' are disappointed with Obama, but we should all be. Gay Americans aren't just another political special interest group. They are Americans who are actively discriminated against by federal laws."

treesta makes it all seem good and possible.

and part of what marriage to treesta would mean includes these:

* i will decide over and over again to live my life with you alongside you bumping up against you
* i will appreciate what is good and fun and ecstatic and this will get me through your sulks and closed off times
* you will have my best interest at heart and believe in me even when i screw up
* i can fart and even throw up in your presence and you don't run screaming for the door.

and, i will clean off my desk because it means a lot to you that i do, treesta, and you will treat me to a filet mignon once in a great while because i love filet mignon.

what was it that erica jong said? "Sometimes it is worth all the disadvantages of marriage just to have that: one friend in an indifferent world."

that's what i want: one friend.

again thanks for this. right up my current alley.

love to all,
dcsistah

[Chrysosistah]

OMG! ARE YOU KIDDING ME? $28,000 for a wedding?? To H*ll with that - gimme the money and I'll buy a nice little house with that endowment!

Good Lord, that's *insane*! Of course, when my other best friend (both Cathys, both met in early elementary school) married two years after Planta & I, her parents offered her a big wedding or $10,000 toward a house (or whatever) - and she took the wedding! I thought she was nuts then, and that was about 1986. I'm sure I've said it here before - Planta & I has a very simple, very sweet, and very cheap wedding by comparison - I think perhaps $800 for the whole deal, including dress, food, rings, everything.

Once again, counting my blessings that I have a boy, and not a girl. I suspect there would be a lot more friction with a girl (unless I was fortunate enough to get a like-minded girl).

[Chrysosistah]

DC, love your post and the advantages you cite ;-)

We do our children an injustice if we ever let them believe in "happily ever after" - that makes it sounds too easy. Seems to me that too many people think the initial euphoria is permanent, they are ignorant of the work & commitment involved in marriage - if you are unfortunate enough to marry someone too immature or ignorant to recognize that fact and truly make the commitment, the marriage is doomed. It's too much for one person to carry.

Then again, so many of us (including me) have lived unthinkingly, unaware or un-self-consciously, assuming everything's OK, that a marriage can slip away before you wake up. That was a shock for me, and I am still working on breaking old habits and being very present.

One of the things I like best about being in a long-term relationship is the history I share with Planta, places we've been, experiences we've shared. Makes my heart bloom with warmth just thinking about it!

[Flannista]

I love the idea of being with a "friend" the rest of my life. Someone who will, as dc writes, "have my best interest at heart and believe in me even when I screw up." I love the idea of "shared experiences," Chryso. Thinking about yours with Planta actually made my heart bloom a bit.

Thanks, dc, for taking the time to post this morning -- even sacrificing your exercise time. Wish there was some way to strap a keyboard onto a treadmill because I'd save a lot of time, too. Like you, I was cynical about marriage until I met Matissta, who, unfortunately, is divorced and understandably skittish about marriage. Divorce costs a lot of money . . . and self-esteem, though it also may preserve it.

My parents eloped as did all of my siblings except for one (who is now divorced). My parents did not attend her wedding though my grandfather and I did. If my parents had given me a choice between money for a wedding or money for a house (or whatever), I would have taken the money and would have RUN AWAY AS FAR AS POSSIBLE. That's what I ended up doing, anyway, after they gave me the ol' heave-ho. Perhaps one of the reasons I'm confused about marriage is because my parents seemed to downplay it -- at least the "wedding" part of it. Further, they express very little interest in my siblings' spouses. Needless to say, they NEVER ask about Matiss.

[Chrysosistah]

Wow. Well, nothing personal Flannista, but your parents are...unique. Definitely unusual.

None of my friend's parents are that disconnected from their kid's lives. Seems to me it's more common for parents to be too involved in the kid's lives, not uninvolved.

My mother didn't approve of our marriage, wanted me to "marry up" - y'know, the old "marry for money and love will follow" theory. When she realized I didn't value her input, she had my father (they were divorced about 10 yrs at that point) try to persuade me not to marry Planta. Maybe I've told this story here too, can't recall, forgive me if I'm repeating. Anyhow, dad tried to convince me that we weren't suited, that I would shortly come to deeply regret the marriage. He was so sure he was right that he offered to pay me to live with Planta for 1 month. I sat there sinking deeper into shock as he spoke - my father was not one to speak so, or to inject himself so deeply into my business. After he finished speaking, I just sat there, staring off into the woods. He finally had to ask what I thought. I was so stunned, it still took a minute to compose a verbal reply (many thoughts whirling in my head). I can't even recall exactly what I said, but basically I rejected the offer, stated we were getting married, and if he didn't want to walk me down the aisle, that was fine. I think I also told him I was shocked he waited so long to say something (it was about 2 or 3 months until the planned wedding day, and we had been dating 3+ years) I learned from my stepmom that mom put dad up to it.

He also advocated we elope versus having a proper wedding. Apparently that's what he did. Honestly, just can't see the appeal.

Both my dad and my stepdad walked me "down the aisle"...everyone was present, and they all played nicely. :-)

[Flannista]

Chryso -- your last comment was very painful to read. I think much of it has to do with the detail of your memory. I felt like I was in the room with you. As a matter of fact, I found myself "blocking the action," as though I were filming it. I'm sorry you had this scene with your dad -- it still holds a lot of power. Just wanted you to know that it feels "foundational" or "pivotal" to me. Like a turning point or touchstone . . . not certain what I'm getting at.

My mother once said that she and my dad were "odd." Really -- her adjective. They are unlike any of my friends' parents. To use my mother's term, it's odd that Matissta's mother, Momista, knows about -- and seems genuinely interested in -- about a gadjillion more things about me than my own parents, and I've only known Momista for about four years. My parents do live in a very closed fantasy world, a world where very little pain is allowed in. They would say that they are happily married. They don't seem very happy to me, and they are not my role models for good parents or for a good marriage.

[Chrysosistah]

Thanks, Flannista. It was upsetting at the time, because it was so out of character of my dad to do that - but then once I realized my mom was behind it, the world righted itself fairly quickly. It was also good to have my stepmom there, as she was able to quickly fill in the backstory and express support for Planta & I, and high annoyance that my dad fell for my mother's machinations. (By the way, you need to block this on the front steps of a small white cottage out in the woods, end of a pleasant weekend visit, chickens clucking softly in the background)

My mom has always had a very hard time differentiating me from her, and thus presumed that whatever her experience is will be mine as well, and whatever appeals to her will appeal to me (and is always very insulted when I point out otherwise). Both my grandmother and mother divorced their first husbands, and so apparently they decided I was incapable of determining my own best interests. She influenced my father (which was also unusual), probably pointing out they went wrong and I was destined for the same path. *sigh*

I was insulted at the thought of being bribed to "go live with" Planta, esp. since it was my father! I mean, shouldn't a father be interested in his daughter's reputation? At that time, I felt it was wrong to live together versus getting married - couldn't believe it was my Dad(!) advocating for it. But then, he is a professed atheist, so it's not like those beliefs apply. We didn't argue or anything, no harsh words, but I did cry some, and I definitely communicated my shock & dismay my father would suggest such a thing. He let it go, and I went inside to get my things to go home.

It's long since past (25+ years ago now), my dad & I are fine, and he takes interest in the family and we try to see each other as often as possible.

[Chrysosistah]

Back to the original post...

I think anyone would consider circumstances laid out by singlemommasista, "To work, to parent, to housekeep, to be the ones who schedule 'date night,' only to be reprimanded in the home by male kitchen bitches, and then, in the bedroom, to be ignored...." to be a bum deal - regardless of who was getting the short end of the stick.

Marriage is only as good as, or as bad as, the two people involved. It's not like the fairy godmother waves the wand at the ceremony and all of the sudden you know everything you're supposed to do, as does your partner, and you live together happily ever after. If both people approach it with a good heart, good attitude, and a willingness to work (including seeing a counselor if needed), I see no reason why the marriage shouldn't be long and fruitful.

I think in the past some marriages were of convenience or habit, I would expect those types of marriages will become more and more rare as time goes by.

[PEACEsista]

I don't know exactly what to say or how to say it. I really like being married. It's comfortable like your favorite jeans, warm like your favorite sweater, and satisfying like your favorite meal. To assume that romance and sexual excitement fade is a blanket statement and not true for everyone. I've been married for almost 32 years ... 2/3 of my life almost. We are better friends than ever before, but we still like each other for the same reasons we did when we fell in love and we still have fun.

I think marriage is more than just a decision. For me it is a biological drive ... like survival. I am not talking weddings here, but about the desire to have a life partner and to create a home and family together.

I'm watching the bald eagles on the lake this summer. They mate for LIFE. No one enforces it. They are raising an eaglet. You could not ask for more attentive parents. Honestly, watching them makes me feel a little ashamed to think of how distracted I was when my sons were little. We humans are so smart ... we can rationalize anything ... but for some of us, might we also have the DNA that compels us to have a life partner?

[PEACEsista]

One more thing, though married a long time, we are not the SAME people we were in our 20's. A lasting and happy marriage somehow allows for the partners to change over time, but still stay together, to still be in love.

Also, It does a grave disservice to marriage to portray mostly in terms of good or bad sex. There we go again in this culture ... reducing relationships to sex ... which sells Atlantic Monthly.

[Chrysosistah]

Rock on, PEACE!! You said it so well!

and I am totally jealous of your lakeview & the eagles...

[Flannista]

To be fair, I may have inappropriately focused on the parts of the Atlantic Monthly article that mentioned sex -- there I go again -- trying to get folks to comment in the 'sphere, so I take responsibility for that. I don't think that's what Loh was doing. Her article is a review of five different books on marriage. I think the articles (including, "Why Your Marriage Sucks") are more about the death of romance. I've read both and that is closer to the point.

PEACE -- I know you like being married. You and noway are one of the couples I can count on one hand that seem to have a healthy marriage. You two DO seem like good friends.

I think eagles can mate for life because they don't have a fear of death -- which really drives so many humans to so many mistakes. Forgive that little philosophical bomb . . . today I started to read The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. Humans do rationalize everything, including thinking that they can somehow escape death. It's not in our DNA. Knowing that someone will be by my side when I die is reason alone to find a life partner and do the work necessarily to keep the relationship meaningful and vibrant.

[Flannista]

"Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do." -- Zsa Zsa Gabor

Guess she would know.

[Carolyn]

Flann, Flann, Flann. Finally reading that 'death' book, eh? Interesting, that the fear of dying alone would be one of the things that would make you work harder at a relationship. Knowing what I do of you, that actually makes a bit of sense.

Chryso, that's a sad story about your Dad. Even sadder that your Mom was capable of putting him up to it. So sorry that you had to suffer that, happy for your end results, though.

Zsa Zsa don't know for sh*t about love, that silly goose of a woman.

[half-a-sista]

Marriage? I think it's okay if that's what you want to do. Most people enter into the institution with the idea that it will be idyllic for years and years and years. I don't know of a marriage that was, is, or will be.

My straight, female friends complain of husbands who don't want any form of intimacy with them, especially sexual, or want to do the deed every chance they get, which means the husband gets off and then goes to sleep. I have a friend who was married for 20 years to a nice guy. He marched into their bedroom one morning and announced that the movers would arrive at 10 a.m. for she might want to get dressed. "You mean, you bought that couch we were looking at?" she asked. "No, I divorcing you." He handed her the New York Times and a cup of coffee (a ritual of performed every Sunday morning for 20 years) and left the room. In the end he accused her of lying to him about wanting to have children.

I think people should live together for as long as they want. Then stop.

If it's a companion you want, then have one. If you want sex on the side and your partner agrees to that, then fine, otherwise keep the parts private or get a divorce.

I liked Loh's article. It surprised me that she was the one who had the affair that led her to consider the divorce. Her friends sound fairly typical of the straight women I know.

Most animals do not mate for life. There are exceptions, like eagles. We are the same in our yearning for relationships and adventure.

I would rather have 10 faithful friends, than be married to a companion who didn't like me or want to have sex with me. I can always have sex. I can't always find love.

[Matissta]

Let me first say, I'm taking about marriage from a heterosexual point of view. I was never anxious to get married, which was pretty obvious because I got married when I was close to 40. Many of my friends, especially male ones, were surprised even though I had been with my ex-husband for 10 years.

I'm not against marriage. I think many people thrive in it. I guess one of the key points for a successful marriage is wanting the same things in life.

I found being older, I was less likely to tolerate certain "habits" my spouse had. Before marriage, I had my independence (we didn't live together) and his companionship. I could take care of myself financially, which is still a reason many women get married.

Another main reason, I believe people get married is to have a family. I once had a co-worker say to me, "Why get married, if you're not going to have a family?" I began to think he was right.

[half-a-sista]

Oscar Wilde: Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence.

Rita Rudner: I think men who have a pierced ear are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought jewelry.

[half-a-sista]

Oscar Wilde married and had two sons.

I've known many homosexual men and women who have tried the "heterosexual marriage cure" without any noticeable results other than making two or more people miserable.

[half-a-sista]

Carolyn, actually Zsa Zsa knows a lot about love. She said not to divorce a man because you don't love him. That seems in keeping with American attitudes in heterosexual marriages. "I think I'll stay with him/her because we have lived together for 30 years and I don't want to be single and I have a nice house." Makes sense to me.

[Jerseysista]

So, Flann, let me see if I have this right. Eagles mate for life because they do NOT fear death and you want a life partner partially BECAUSE you fear death. Is that right?

I fear aloneness more than I fear death but I believe loneliness at the time of my death would be the worst.

[Jerseysista]

Again, from the point of fearing loneliness: I agree with the sentiment "I think I'll stay with him/her because we have lived together for 30 years and I don't want to be single and I have a nice house." There could be worse things. As half-a said, makes sense to me. BUT, if you desire more or if you feel the nice house is a poor substitute for a chance at intimacy, ditch the marriage.

[Flannista]

I knew my fear of death would make Carolyn appear. She's known about it well, since I was born. She must have been in that baby crib next to mine in the birthing center. Carolyn gave me that death book for my birthday. Out of the three million books on my Amazon wish list, she picked that one. I mean, what more can I say about her devotion? What's really endearing is that I always hear her kind of laughing when I talk about and/or write about that fear. That's actually kind of good for me -- her laughing, not particularly me always writing and/or thinking about death.

Jersey: here's a quote from Becker: "The knowledge of death is reflective and conceptual, and animals are spared it. They live and they disappear with the same thoughtlessness: a few minutes of fear, a few seconds of anguish, and it is over. But to live a whole lifetime with the fate of death haunting one's dreams and even the most sun-filled days -- that's something else."

Have to confess when I read that, I thought of the moment Isaac left this sweet world, and I bawled like a baby.

But I'm off topic. I, too, believe loneliness at the time of death would be the worst, except of course if the person who is with you is someone you should have ditched decades earlier.

half-a -- I want to calligraphy this on a piece of parchment: "I would rather have 10 faithful friends, than be married to a companion who didn't like me or want to have sex with me. I can always have sex. I can't always find love." Yeah, I do want that on parchment. So simple and wise. Made me SO grateful that I have at least 10 faithful friends (you are one, and Matiss, Chryso, Jersey, dc, treesta, PEACE and noway, West, babysis, singlemommasista . . . and Carolyn, I guess).