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November 03, 2009

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Flannista

After Matissta read this post, she said, "It's going to be too hard for people to comment. It's too intellectual or something. I had never read Rand, and I bet most others haven't, too."

Oh well.

I am curious if anyone else was as hooked by Rand when they were younger as I was. If not, what books did hook you?

Did your parents ever destroy a book you were reading, telling you it was "very dangerous"?

The irony here (again) is that I now think Rand's teachings ARE dangerous, though that is NOT the reason my mother burned my Rand books. She was threatened by anything that impeded her influence over me. I wonder if she remembers burning my Rand books every time she hears Glenn Beck or Limbaugh quote from them as she seems to hang onto most of what these bozos spew.

I hope I don't sound too much like my mother, however, when I opine that I am much less disturbed by pubic hair on a Clarence Thomas coke can than I am by the fact that he worships Ayn Rand.

Flannista

Now that she's fueling the conservative zeitgeist, TRM is reading Ayn Rand for the first time. He told me -- his voice very grave, the way it is when another day ends with a down market -- that Ayn (mispronounced) Rand is "important in times like these when the country is in so much danger."

I said, "She doesn't believe in God, you know."

TRM said, "If you lack wisdom you will one day attend a banquet of consequences."

FLANN: "Huh?"

TRM: "I read that somewhere."

FLANN: "Did Rand say that?

TRM: "I don't know. I like the quote, though."

I didn't bother telling him that I had already read Rand 40 years ago. Or that her writing made Dan Brown look like Cormac McCarthy. Or that he might one day be attending a banquet of consequences.

nowayasista

I read Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead in High School. Thought they were great. Never became a Rand or anyone else groupie. Funny how folks can write good stories, obviously filled with their own personal philosophies and we cannot just take them for what they are. Stories.

You need a little patience to read her stuff, but I liked and continue to like the theme of individualism. Flann, maybe those folks you saw did ask for their own destruction.

My folks never burned books or told us what to read or not read. I do think we all probably own way too many books.

Chrysosistah

Oh, yeah -- I thought everyone read Ayn Rand in high school, and then grew out of it in college. I, too, read every flippin' one of her books. I think if anyone's going to start read her, they need to start with something much more approachable, like The Anthem or We The Living. I think her style, so simple, so black & white, appeals to teenagers, or to people looking for simple answers. Of course, the view of individuals superior to the group also appeals to anyone feeling plagued or persecuted.

As much as I enjoyed her writing at the time, I did come to realize how fantastical and fictional her "worlds" were. And, although I was a voracious reader at the time, I could NEVER plow thru her G*d-awful speech she gave John Galt in Atlas Shrugged. Oh, HELL yes, that should have been seriously edited. She was a victim of her own glamour and fame, her sycophants refused or couldn't see the flaws in her thinking.

And NO, Flannista, no one ever removed a book from my collection, or said it was a bad idea to read it, and Hell, no, didn't burn anything of mine, ever. Then again, I bought a shirt for Kiddo that read, "I read banned books" (with a huge long list of banned books on the back) when he was still in elementary school.

And the pubic hair on the coke can to me is much more of an immediate threat to Anita, and part of the general pallor and intimidation cast over all employees and subordinates than the fact he enjoys escapist fiction.

You know Greenspan was one of her groupies, right?

half-a-sista

What interesting bedfellows hard times bring! TRM reading the works of an atheist and proclaiming them wisdom. Do people like Glenn, TRM, Rush, and Clarence not see the ugly side of Ayn Rand? No, because it suits their purposes in staying on top of the s**t pile.

I guess it was only a matter of time before the "born-again", godless right wing nut cases would embrace someone who says so much about the moral bankruptcy in which they find their souls. Clarence "Long Dong Silver, My Wife and I Have Bible Study Every Night" Thomas likes her? Poor Ayn, I don't think she saw that one coming.

I read her books. Never much cared for them. Too dark. Too dismal. To selfish. When I read Atlas Shrugged, I remember thinking, This woman needs an anti-depressant, a very large dose.

Yes, my mother destroyed a book I had hidden under my mattress. No, she "allowed" me to destroy it. "Why do you read such filth?" she asked. I read it because it was mildly pornographic and I was 14 years old. I took the book to the trash can and ceremoniously set it afire as she watched from the back door. What she didn't see was that I burned a less favorite novel wrapped in the cover of the "filthy" book. I kept the innards of my favorite book in a new, more secret hiding place. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Flannista

Yes, I knew Greenspan was an Ayn groupie. I found a picture of him and Ayn and Gerald Ford taken in the Oval Office. Everyone looks so happy and rich.

Rand's editor, Bennett Cerf (yes, that one) pleaded with Rand to cut down her John Galt speech, but she replied, "Would you cut the Bible?" She gave up 7 cents per copy of Atlas Shrugged in royalties so she could have the extra paper needed to print it. On the one hand, she chose art over capitalism. On the other hand . . . she's a megalomaniac.

I hear what you're saying about Clarence Thomas, Chryso . . . and agree with you. I was just trying to stir the sass pot.

Flannista

noway, Rand herself did not see her books as "stories." She saw them as gospel and fueled a cult around her philosophy.

I, too, like the theme of individualism, but prefer Henry David Thoreau's approach or Emerson's -- not the misogynist rantings of Rand.

Flannista

Do conservatives and/or conservative evangelicals have ANY idea that Ayn Rand does not see charity as a virtue?

half-a-sista

Read a little on Ayn. She was human like the rest of us. Testified before the Communist Witch Hunters of the 1950's to soothe their troubled minds. Got mad when her boy toy (Nathan Braden) had an affair with another woman and Nathan and his wife hid that fact. She denounced them. She was born in Russia, graduated from a university in the Soviet Union. Moved to the U.S.

I wonder if Rush, Clarence, Glenn and TRM know of her "communist" background. Probably don't care.

And Alan Greenspan? Has hell frozen over?

frida

I read The Fountainhead in high school and found it long and stupid, though I also liked the idea of doing what ever I wanted to do. Then I thought if Ayn Rand had her way, we could never go anywhere because each section of the road would be privately owned. Mrs. Jones liked to take long naps . . . so the cars on her section of the road would just line up forever on her street.

Clarence Thomas is sad and Greenspan was completely mistaken.

My Mother went with me to the library so I could take out Michener's Caravans because the librarian wouldn't let me have it. I was twelve. (Besides believing that I was old enough to read the book, Mother didn't like the idea that someone was telling her kid what to do.) I am reading Lies My Mother Never Told Me . . . a case study in dreadful mothering, and a reminder to read Alice Miller again in order to see how the child is ruined by the needy Mother. Good to look at myself again, too. Right now, I feel like interfering in my son's life. Not a good idea . . .

frida

Oh, and another mind ramble -- goodness and mercy fare poorly in Rand's world. Where would we be without love and selflessness? Having to sit next to Rand or someone like her at a boring dinner party in a bomb shelter.

Flannista

half-a-sista: so sorry that you had to burn a book while your mother watched, but damn, I wish I had thought of changing the covers on my Rand books, though there wasn't any way of getting them from my mother once she had them.

I had hidden my Rand books, by the way. My mother knew I was reading them, of course, but I read them discreetly and hid my stash. It must have taken her a long time to find them. I had emptied out a checkers game box in a toy closet in the basement, and laid the books (The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, Anthem, We the Living) out in there -- and the box was behind other stuff. She presented me with them when I walked into her house after school one day, along with a copy of an article on Rand's atheism and a box of matches. Her ritual was goofy, in retrospect. I had to read the article out loud in front of her, then toss the books into the trash barrel, after lighting the first one. I chose The Fountainhead, by the way.

Thank you for getting the irony of folks like TRM proclaiming the wisdom of Rand, half-a. Her writings are despicable and thoughtful Christians in particular shouldn't be swallowing this godless dopiness.

Chrysosistah

Yeah, I have plenty of bad mothering examples in my head -- I'm always seeking good mothering examples as counterbalance . . .

Half-a, as I understood it, her work was a direct result of her exposure to the Russian Revolution. She hated it, hated how it affected her and her whole family. I think she developed an intellectual allergy to anything that even had a whiff of socialist tendencies. But she was also off her rocker, a bit (I suppose that's not hard to do . . .).

Well, I've gotta get to work -- but this is a great post, Flannista! Thanks! ;-)

Flannista

frida -- I love your example of the Mrs. Jones private roads.

I also wish my mother would have had the same openness your mother had to books.

And yes, without love and selflessness, we would be sitting next to Rand pontificating at a boring party in a bomb shelter.

Chryso -- thank you for your kind words about this post, but I can tell that the topic has tapped into deep and heretofore unexpressed anger. The Russian Revolution initiated perhaps the worst genocide in the history of the world, but Nietzche's philosophy initiated a genocide equally as pernicious. In responding to the Russian Revolution, Rand went from one extreme to the other.

One other petty thing; look at the photo in this post. Does that look like someone you'd want to listen to for more than five minutes?

Jerseysista

I read most of Rand's books in high school and was quite taken with the philosophy at the time. I think the Rand’s stuff is especially potent for teenagers because at that age individualism holds such an allure and the need to solidly know who you are and what you want are is so achingly present. The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged satisfy those needs. I still have my copies of both of those books.

Jerseysista

My parents never destroyed any of my books but my Mother did find a copy of “Everything You Wanted To Know About Sex” and confiscated it. If I recall correctly, I found it later still in the house – perhaps in my mother’s own stash?

PEACEsista

Matiss was obviously thinking of me. I've never read Ayn Rand and I'm not sure that I ever will. I do think that it is an interesting phenomenon that a novel can create a real-time controversy, as with Dan Brown's DaVinci Code, which the Catholic church hated and disputed.

It does seem that people are often inclined to believe much of what they see and read, regardless of the source, or the fact that it's labeled "fiction."

Matissta

Wow, I'm glad PEACE fessed up. I was beginning to think I was the only one in the sphere who didn't read her. But I must admit, reading the post makes me curious about her writings so much that I might finally read one of her books.

It was probably a good thing I didn't read her in HS. I was already a strong individual, never following the crowd, but I've always believed in charity. I don't quite understand the concept of not wanting to help others.

half-a mentioning her upbringing, makes sense to me as to why she believes what she does.

And PEACE, I love your last comment. "It does seem that people are often inclined to believe much of what they see and read, regardless of the source, or the fact that it's labeled 'fiction.' " So true. Why are these people put up on pedestals?

I'm so glad I was wrong about the possible lack of comments. I've found the comment stream very interesting so far.

babysis

If people really knew "who they are" they would quit latching on to obsessions like this one to figure out what they're supposed to believe or say or do. Never read any Rand, but meant to and may one day. I'll probably wait till the hoopla has died down though.

Didn't read much controversial stuff till I was out of my parents' home. Might have done me good sooner though. Catcher in the Rye was a fav of my husband's, and I also prefer the coming of age angst stuff over this "take yourself too seriously" vein.

Flannista

Interesting article emailed to me from Chryso about Greenspan's regrets about government regulations being bad for markets. The subtitle includes this phrase: "Whoops -- there goes decades of Ayn Rand down the drain":

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/10/25-6

half-a-sista

Ayn saw her family's fortune ruined by the Bolsheviks and their Communist revolution. Her own education was disrupted for a time by the "group-think" mentality of the early Communists. No wonder she loved Nietzche's books which fueled Nazism. Either way the state wins and individualism bites the dust.

Early communism (actually communism at any state of its existence) was not an example of socialism. Communism does not equal socialism.

Loved Jersey's comments about teens. In no age group of people is the need to belong stronger. They attempt to assert their individuality within the confines of what their specific peer group affirms is the right way. They try so hard to be individuals, but not too individual as to be shunned by their friends. Do we ever get over that need?

Flann, be kind to those of us who engage in godlessness dopiness.

I thought of a political cartoon (too bad I can't draw) of Glenn, Rush, Clarence, and TRM standing in a line at a government office with their hands full of papers. The sign over the clerk's window would say, "Moral Bankruptcy Applications Only".

Flannista

PEACE -- I'm so happy that you and noway are back home. Thanks for commenting today.

You aren't missing much by not reading Ayn Rand, but I'm not going to forbid it! (Matissta -- my replacement copies of Rand's books are in my attic somewhere; don't bother buying them.)

babysis: love this: "If people really knew 'who they are' they would quit latching on to obsessions like this one to figure out what they're supposed to believe or say or do." I ought to give my 11th grade student teacher some credit for recognizing that I needed to be an individual. Maybe I'm being too hard on Rand. Perhaps reading her helped me to individuate from my mother even more. That's a serious comment.

Catcher in the Rye is a great book of "rebellion," babysis. (So is the Bible, for that matter.)

Jersey -- I had forgotten that you read Rand's books in high school. We'll have to ask your mother about your copy of Everything You've Always Wanted to Know About Sex when she visits you at Thanksgiving.

Flannista

Love that cartoon idea, half-a!

There's a difference between godlessness and godless dopiness.

You aren't dopey, half-a. And you don't strike me as particularly godless, either, and I mean nothing disparaging.

half-a-sista

Maybe for added punch, Ayn Rand could be the clerk.

How would the TRM feel about Rand's Judaism? I have known evangelical Christians who believed the Jews are destined for hell for the murder of Jesus. Some even believed in the Zionist conspiracy to take over the world's economy. Wacko wonders of modern America.

If a male and female Jews give birth to Jewish babies, do two Southern Baptists give birth to a Southern Baptist baby? What results when a Catholic and a Baptist conceive a child? It the baby a Cathist or a Baptholic? I never understood the concept of two Jews giving birth to a Jewish baby, but then I never understood anti-Semitism.

Flannista

Hmmmm -- not certain I get the point of the last paragraph in your 9:56 a.m. comment, half-a. Your point is either unclear or . . . dopey.

(I'm foolin' with ya, half-a!)

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