Is the (Tea) Party Over?

HAPPY ST. PATRICK'S DAY, SASSOSPHERE!  Make yourself a pot of English Breakfast tea and add a shot of Irish whiskey (a "Northern Ireland" according to half O'sista), then sit back and read this month's "Meet the Sass" from Westsista!

I can't wait for the inevitable train wreck when the Tea Party crowd collides with conservative Republicans.

Nothing unites like a common enemy, and these two groups have been united by Barack Obama.  Both groups dislike and fear him, which is a powerful recipe for common ground.  But they also dislike John McCain and aren't that wild about Mitt Romney.

These two groups have some core beliefs that are just not compatible.  I'm not sure how they will reconcile those core principles, or if that is even possible.  Although Tea Party members tend to be conservative, that doesn't necessarily mean they think that government is the solution to social issues.

Every year, the Conservative Political Action Committee (CPAC) holds a convention, and this year the Tea Party influence was felt. CPAC's annual straw poll, asking "who would be your first choice for the Republican nominee for President?" was won in 2007, 2008 and 2009 by Mitt Romney.  This year RON PAUL, the most prominent Libertarian in the world, won the straw poll!

(By the way, do you remember who won the CPAC straw poll in 2006?  George Allen -- the Macaca guy.)

Although Libertarians are not Tea Party activists -- not exactly, anyway -- they share some of the same values: small government and low taxes.  Since the Tea Party movement is emerging, it is not always clear what policies they will embrace.  The Libertarian Party -- the party of Ron Paul -- has well-established and publicly-declared policies.  Since it is not clear exactly what policies the Tea Party will end up endorsing, I'll use the Libertarian policies to illustrate the differences.

	Conservative Republicans	Libertarians
WAR	Conservative Republicans (such as Dick Cheney, still extremely popular in this group) believe in launching wars against countries that may present a threat sometime in the future.	Libertarians do not believe in foreign wars except in the most extreme cases of immediate self defense. They are adamantly opposed to both current wars in the Middle East, Iraq and Afghanistan.
ABORTION	Many Conservative Republicans would like to change the law to make abortion a criminal offense for both women and their doctors.	Libertarians are divided on abortion rights. Many take the position that government should stay out of the issue. Others believe that abortion violates their non-aggression principle
GAY RIGHTS	Opposed to gay rights, even to the point of endorsing a constitutional amendment (except for Dick Cheney, who actually supports gay marriage). Some Republican members of Congress have called for outlawing homosexual behavior.	Generally Libertarians believe people have the right to privacy and their own religious and sexual lives.
LEGALIZATION OF MARIJUANA	Opposed.	Support.

When it comes to actually electing candidates, the Tea Party will have to get more specific about the policies which support their principles.  They already feel that Scott Brown (R-MA) has let them down by voting for the Jobs Bill.

I think the interesting fireworks will begin sometime late this summer, and I wonder how long the Tea Party energy and exuberance will last when the going gets tough. Politics is really more of a drunken brawl than a polite tea party.

By the way, I'm choosing to ignore the fringe elements of the Tea Bag movement, such as the folks who believe our president is an illegal alien who should be deported, and that states have the right to secede from the union (you might have thought that over 600,000 American deaths and a Civil War might have settled that issue, but no).  I'll even control myself and not make any snarky jokes about tea bagging.

The point is, there are serious people who are legitimately concerned about the level of taxes and the interference of big government in our lives.  The majority of them deserve respect for their passion for speaking out and for their activism.

Comments

[Flannista]

Thank you, Westsista, for another informative "Meet the Sass".

I had no idea that Libertarians held some of these views. I thought they were just about no taxes.

Could you clarify what you meant by this?: "Although Tea Party members tend to be conservative, that doesn't necessarily mean they think that government is the solution to social issues."

I didn't think Tea Party members would EVER think government is the solution to social issues.

[Flannista]

While at the Fitness Center, it occurred to me that both Libertarians and conservative Republicans are willing to let go of some of their policies out of fear of Obama. Strikes me as an odd antibiosis, with conservative Republicans adversely affected. But perhaps that is your point.

[Flannista]

West, I'm dying to know your opinion of Pelosi's idea to use an obscure parliamentary maneuver -- also known as a "deem and pass" to make a final decision on the Health Care Bill -- meaning the Bill would be enacted without a direct vote.

What was Pelosi thinking? Isn't this outrageous, not to mention, unconstitutional on a bill this huge? I know the maneuver has been done lots of times by both Democrats and Republicans, but to use it now seems bone-headed.

All to say, it's really brewing a tempest of a teapot for Tea Party members and, I suspect, Libertarians. Obviously, I'm not sitting well with it, either.

[nowayasista]

Every time I take one of those tests that theoretically conclude which is your party of choice, I always wind up libertarian. Always. I find the libertarian party winds up supporting some wing nut who usually just has one item on the agenda . . . legalizing dope. Ok, next? Ron Paul is pretty outrageous with his beliefs such as end the Federal Reserve. Maybe it's time for outrageous. It seems for anything at all to move from dead center, extreme ideas may be needed.

[Flannista]

Many would call Obama's ideas extreme, noway. Are they needed?

And in the interest of full disclosure, I took one of those tests years ago and wound up as a libertarian, too!

[PEACEsista]

Flann, I think noway is suggesting that extreme ideas and outrageous candidates may be needed to break the current bipartisan gridlock in Congress that is preventing movement on ANY issue.

Great post, West. You always raise my political IQ. I'm curious though, is there a similar divide in the democratic party, too? I've heard lots of discussion this week regarding health care reform involving democrats who support the "public option" vs. those who don't. Is it a similar divide in the party across the aisle?

[Jerseysista]

Thanks for the post, West. I have had a tendency to just brand the Tea Party as conservative. It's good to be reminded that they are more aligned with the Libertarians who are more concerned about getting government out of their lives than they are about left or right politics.

Your chart is good. It really points out that the conservatives, although espousing small government, in reality are quite selective when they apply that principle. It seems intrusive and expanding government is just fine when it comes to war and legislating conservative values. The conservatives will definitely butt heads with Libertarians on these issues.

[babysis]

Happy St. Patrick's Day, although I have little idea what that means beyond a love of green.

I think you're probably right about the likelihood of self destruction and train wrecks when any group full of pride and popularity tries to share the same space with another. (maybe the Green Party can thus be excluded).

[half-a-sista]

Flann, perhaps Pelosi talked about that maneuver to get the parties to talk about health care reform instead of posturing about abortion, cost, coverage and the other issues that can be addressed if all concerned would get over themselves and look to the good of the country...pharmaceutical companies, doctors, hospitals, pro-life/pro-choice factions, and everyone else who would obstruct national healthcare for their own petty causes.

Everyone needs access to affordable health care without regard to their income or their ability to pay. How we do it will require work, not speech-i-fying.

[half-a-sista]

I know some 20-somethings who are anarchist wannabe's. They like Ron Paul and voted for him in the last election. They don't believe in government interference in any aspect of their lives...no regulations, no taxes, no laws, nothing.

The Libertarian Party seems very conservative, not reactionary like parts of the Republican party or theocratic like some Democrats and Republicans. Actually I can't tell much difference between the Republicrats and the Democans on many issues.

[half-a-sista]

West, what about those people who dislike big government and its "interference" in our lives? Are they clear about what "interference" they don't like, for example, do they despise the provisions of the Patriot Act that infringe on the civil liberties of American citizens, the laws that govern a woman's right to control her body, or people's rights to choose their sex partners without regard to gender? Or, do they want to control people's morals but cut down on government "interference" likemeat inspection, aircraft inspection, the testing of prescription drugs before they go on sale to the public, and other government "interferences"?

What's your take?

[Flannista]

Hey sistas and mistas -- Westsista recently got a job, so I think that is why she is not on as regularly as she has been in the past.

You all have raised very interesting questions and points, however. Wish I could answer them, but I'm no West.

Stay tuned.

[Flannista]

Just got, half-a's "Republicrats" and "Democans."

I like it.

In the mean time, do any of you have ANY idea how in the world I tested as a libertarian?

[Jerseysista]

You mis-read the results, Flann. That was CONTrarian.

[Jerseysista]

Here's the thing. There is the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, the Libertarian Party and others but when you talk about stance, like conservative and liberal, there is a tendency to think libertarian is a third option. In my view Libertarian is just a philosophy about limiting laws about things that people can enforce for themselves. That philosophy can apply to a conservative or liberal stance.

[Jerseysista]

half-a, I'm going to chime in on your 11:48 question to West. I think people are sometimes using one term to mean two different things. "Big government" to some means too much government spending and taxing for things they believe should remain in the private sector (see universal health care critics). For others, "Big government " seems to mean that, regardless of spending, it's not government's place to stick its nose in things that don't matter like victimless crimes (helmet laws, prostitution, marijuana) and ineffective regulation and bureaucracy. For moral issues, it seems to depend on who you talk to as to whether the issue is "victimless" and therefore not for government to tamper with. A victimless removal of a minute blastocyst, to one person, is a homicide to another. One person's victimless marriage is another's downfall of civilization.

[Jerseysista]

I have a question about the posted image of the drunk. Is that the fallout of the collision between conservatives and the Tea Party? Is that a leprechaun? Is it young Dumbledore?

[Flannista]

I bet it WAS contrarian, Jersey. The only difficulty with that is this is also how TRM refers to himself.

As I chose the bottom image in this post, I shall clarify who it is:

It is Ralph Reed after one too many Brokebacks.

[Westsista]

Hey guys! I'm finally here. I LOVE the photo, Flann! Cracks me up. That guy definitely illustrates "the party's over."

Libertarians have actual policy on issues across the board, so it is much easier to see where they stand than the Tea Party. Plus the fact that the Tea Partiers have lots of subgroups which believe different things. One day on Hardball, Chris had a prominent Tea Party guy on who was talking about how states have the right to secede (!) and the next day he had another one on, who said the first guy was just a fringe nut.

I think there's a tendency to look at some of the really obscene posters and listen to some of the ranting and assume that all of these people are nuts. Even though they are not cohesive yet, and as I said, haven't really defined policy positions yet, I think there is a legitimate activism which is interesting.

Personally, I think their true home is with the Libertarians. If they really joined forces, that third party could be quite formidable.

[Flannista]

Their true home is with the Libertarians? Tea Party members would respect the right to privacy and not interfere with gay marriage? I find that very hard to believe, West.

Did you read that the wife of Clarence Thomas has started her own Tea Party group? Also, one time last fall, while flying to Orlando, I was upgraded to first class. Three out of the 12 people in first class were Tea Party members. What are the chances of that?

[Westsista]

I think part of my point was that the Tea Party is an interesting mix, one that won't actually last for very long, all in the same bag (or should I say bottle, in honor of St. Patrick' Day?).

Sarah Palin was their main headliner at the first Tea Party Convention EVER. And Tom Tancredo was the opening speaker. Both of these are very conservative Republicans, right? But two things to note. The Tea Party was not united in their convention - many self-identified Tea Partiers boycotted the convention for a variety of reasons. And at CPAC, even though the Republicans tried to embrace the Tea Party, the actual vote came out way in favor of Ron Paul, the Libertarian.

Ron Paul's views are quite at odds with Sarah Palin's and Tom Tancredo's.

I know there are crazy people who just enjoy teabag paraphernalia and feeling like they are at the forefront of an important movement. But there are also serious people, thoughtful people, who are really worried about the deficit, big government, and too much spending.

[Flannista]

West -- to get back to a question in my 5:39 a.m. comment:

Could you clarify what you meant by this?: "Although Tea Party members tend to be conservative, that doesn't necessarily mean they think that government is the solution to social issues."

What do you mean? I thought conservatives NEVER wanted government as the solution to social issues.

[Westsista]

Flann, good question about Deem and Pass. For me, I think you said it. This procedure has been used before to pass bills. Yes, this is a big bill but the House and Senate have both passed similar bills in full votes. Congress has to play by the rules, but if this falls within the rules, why not? I just heard the Republicans say that Democrats are trying to "sneak this by" but Democrats are already all on the record with a vote on health care reform.

The final bill (which is the Senate bill, actually the more conservative of the two) will be immediately "fixed" to take out the provisions required to get Nebraska and Louisiana's votes. And also to remove the antitrust exemption. And a bunch of other things, all of which I think are good.

So I'm all for it. Getting things by on any procedural basis was how things got done for the past 8 years. Democrats are more squeamish about these things in general, but not me. Apparently health care reform is going to be ONLY Democrats and I can't imagine Democrats getting a larger majority in Congress than they have now.

Barack Obama and the Democrats who were elected to Congress made no secret of the fact that they would enact health care reform. They were elected and elections have consequences.

[Westsista]

noway and others who have mentioned taking a political test -- I think I ended up Libertarian too. This may be cynical, but that test is sponsored by the Libertarian Party. Most people I know who have taken it has ended up Libertarian. I haven't heard of a political quiz where people end up to be a wide variety of things. But if anyone has, please post it and I will definitely take it.

[Westsista]

Good questions, PEACE. Yes, Democrats have their own splits, as do Republicans. Democrats have major divides in the party on abortion, spending, and the appropriate role of government. Republicans have major divides over immigration reform, war, criminalizing abortion, gay rights and also spending.

I'm just not sure that the Tea Party will still be a political force by the end of the year. I think part will splinter off to the Libertarians (the ones who are serious about low taxes and small government) with the rest drifting over to the Republicans (the ones who are mainly pissed off at Obama). Just my opinion but perhaps they will surprise me.